tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5111802929460493692.post73750927196217430..comments2020-07-15T20:17:58.292-07:00Comments on Nailing it to the door. . .: Homosexuality - It's really about which kingdom you're in!Dan Martinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01635080266346679464noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5111802929460493692.post-74149016990030991682009-11-01T18:58:48.031-08:002009-11-01T18:58:48.031-08:00Michael, I appreciate your dropping in, and I appr...Michael, I appreciate your dropping in, and I appreciate the spirit in which you offer your comments. My response would be this:<br /><br /><i>If we believe that only by the regeneration of the Spirit can humans truly accomplish God's will, and if we further acknowledge the painful reality that we who claim regeneration consistently miss the mark regarding God's standards, then how can we expect the unregenerate world to be any more successful at implementing God's standard than we have been?</i><br /><br />Of course I take further issue with the notion that American Christians (not necessarily including you, I don't know) who are advocating a "return to God" are actually identifying the key issues God cares about. . .for example I see a lot more in the Biblical texts about how we treat the poor and downtrodden, than about who has sex with whom. . .<br /><br />But my point in the statement about fiat-vs-evangelism is that only through the regeneration of the Spirit and the faithful community of the Body of Christ, can holy living ever be achieved. . .and that therefore, attempting to do so through the secular authority is both futile and counterproductive.Dan Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01635080266346679464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5111802929460493692.post-81192140602258379072009-10-31T21:14:29.109-07:002009-10-31T21:14:29.109-07:00"Missed it by that much!" -Maxwell Smart..."Missed it by that much!" -Maxwell Smart.<br /><br />You had me up to the point of not imposing our will on the unbelievers:<br />"We cannot, and we must not, attempt to accomplish by earthly fiat, what we have failed to accomplish by evangelism"<br />Why shouldn't we? What scripture prevents us from this?<br />First off, they are attacking us and our standards daily, and we have recessed. Why shouldn't we advance with our godly agenda? If God said it was the right way, and we cannot proclaim it as such for everyone, then do we really believe it? I dare say we do not.<br />Secondly, if we believe it is a better way, and do NOT fight for it to be society's way, then we have effectively opted for what is second best for society. Not loving, imho.<br />Third, we live in a country where our participation and leadership is legal and even desired. Why shouldn't we have a seat at the table? Those who are attacking God's standards won't be any less offended then they already are.<br />Consider our failures: They wanted easy divorces, government aid for single mothers, increased pornography, removal of social "shame" or stigmas on sins like teen-age (unmarried) pregnancy or homosexuality, and the church acquiesced. <br />As we retreated, we saw the divorce rate skyrocket, marriage become stigmatized, and we became flooded with illegitimate children, single parent homes, skyrocketing crime sex drug use and drop out rates from these children, and government programs designed to "help" incentivizing fathers not to return home or to take responsibility for their kids.<br /><br />So too, with gay marriage, we can show that this would just be another unnecessary encroachment into the private lives and freedoms of individuals; and we can conclusively show that children perform better with a mother and father in the home.<br />We have secular reasons to enact laws or to prevent them which will help society live better lives. What in the world is wrong with that?<br />Romans says to obey the governing authorities, Jesus said to render unto Caesar; so in this country that means voting, free speech and the right to assemble to enact political renewal. It would seem to counter these verses to not take a seat at the table as representative and ambassadors of God! And no one will ever convince me that we are to come to that table to battle for things which God directly opposes (such as gay marriage).<br /><br />If you have hung with me this far, let me now say HOOZAH! For this article. Too many Christians pick sins which they find personally disgusting, like homosexuality, and pick on that one thing over an above the others. That is not at all correct, and by calling our attention to the fact that it is on par with adultery and divorce (rampant in evangelicalism), you call the faithful to repentance and you offer some love to the gay community! Good job.Michael Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12349196634556315757noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5111802929460493692.post-42464926021230207652009-05-24T00:23:00.534-07:002009-05-24T00:23:00.534-07:00Dan,
I agree with much of what you say here (as yo...Dan,<br />I agree with much of what you say here (as you know, I wrote up something similar on my own site). However, I would disagree with the reasoning you give and Jesus' tie-in.<br /><br />Your definition of "adultery outside the bounds of marriage" is not an accurate one. It is the sort of thing that modern conservatives declare, but it forces 21st century values on ancient societies.<br /><br />Adultery was wrong not because it defiled "the marriage bed." It was wrong because it was essentially the sexual equivalent of "thou shall not steal." We might not like that, being 21st century enlightened types, but that's what the word meant for Israelites in 1600 BC, and it is what the word would mean for Jews in 1st century AD.<br /><br />There is a reason that one of the commandments lump together the "coveting of your neighbor's wife" with the "coveting of your neighbor's belongings."<br /><br />Having sex with an [unmarried] virgin bore <I>absolutely no punishment</I> [Exodus 22:16] Compare that with breaking any of the 10 commandments or having sex with someone's wife.<br /><br />I did a close study of the Torah on the notion of sexual purity and came up with the following:<br />i) When you have sex with someone you become married to them in God's eyes.<br />ii) Hence there is no such thing as pre-marital sex.<br /><br />If you take the above two points it will quickly become clear why prostitution and remarriage were adultery (especially if one considers that in one Gospel Jesus says "except for in the case of sexual infidelity").<br /><br />One final point, when discussing NT ink on this topic [which I think is totally unnecessary], it is worthwhile to bring up the Jerusalem Council, where we are told the Holy Spirit guided the Jews of the 1st century AD to impose the Mosaic sexual morality laws upon Gentiles (that is a pretty big deal at the time because the Mosaic sexual purity laws are quite strict compared to 1st century Gentile standards.David Rudelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10513172651895503104noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5111802929460493692.post-69887602341067330022009-02-07T11:10:00.000-08:002009-02-07T11:10:00.000-08:00I guess I am one of those who would like to hold o...I guess I am one of those who would like to hold onto your category 3 but as you say that might not be possible. I just wish the intensity of this topic would just go away.<BR/>I appreciate you insight about how we are all in various stages of truly accepting Jesus' Lordship. Is the Christian who grudgingly holds on to all his money instead of helping others less fortunate any more or less a Christian than the homosexual who does not yet admit that is sexual feeling are against God's will. I don't know but that is certainly something to ponder. Thanks for arousing me from my mental melaise today.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5111802929460493692.post-83974221795988119992009-02-07T08:17:00.000-08:002009-02-07T08:17:00.000-08:00Dan, thanks for the thoughts here. The assosiation...Dan, thanks for the thoughts here. The assosiation of homosexuality with adultry since they both violate God's plan for marriage and sex is an interesting insight.<BR/>By and large I would agree with with you here. I think homosexuality is out of bounds for a follower of Christ, but wish we would stop making it the be all and end all of sexual ethics. It needs to be discussed in the church, but on the same level as marital unfaithfulness and divorce which are no better biblically.Masonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12865044615971862266noreply@blogger.com